Balancing 40k

Make glancing hits from Necron gauss -1 to damage rolls instead of -2.

Poof, 40k is balanced to the point where any codex can win any tournament. What's funny is Necrons can still do it anyway, they just have the hardest time of it.

Mike C.'s comments are pretty effective and succinct on this subject already. The more you venture from the game as written, the more you benefit people with the resources and drive to break the systems you put in place.

Also, %'s encourage min-max, not discourage it. You can only have 3 slots dedicated to Hydras for instance, at their lovely 75 points. 6 x Meltavets in Chimeras is already at around the 50% troop to begin with. Ask if any guard player would hate the notion of being able to field 6 separate units of Hydras to go along with their 6 separate units of meltavets while still having the points to take someone like Straken, etc.

The more you change the game, the more you reward the most flexible codices, which based upon your own commentary in plenty of other places means you benefit the codices you think are most "broken" (i.e. guard, wolves, angels, etc.).

Comp in 40k (not 7e fantasy, which was just broken beyond belief) is simply expressing the metagame of an individual or group of individuals. There are still places in the country that think Nob Bikers are competitive.

MVBrandt wrote:

Make glancing hits from Necron gauss -1 to damage rolls instead of -2.

Poof, 40k is balanced to the point where any codex can win any tournament. What's funny is Necrons can still do it anyway, they just have the hardest time of it.

Mike C.'s comments are pretty effective and succinct on this subject already. The more you venture from the game as written, the more you benefit people with the resources and drive to break the systems you put in place.

Also, %'s encourage min-max, not discourage it. You can only have 3 slots dedicated to Hydras for instance, at their lovely 75 points. 6 x Meltavets in Chimeras is already at around the 50% troop to begin with. Ask if any guard player would hate the notion of being able to field 6 separate units of Hydras to go along with their 6 separate units of meltavets while still having the points to take someone like Straken, etc.

The more you change the game, the more you reward the most flexible codices, which based upon your own commentary in plenty of other places means you benefit the codices you think are most "broken" (i.e. guard, wolves, angels, etc.).

Comp in 40k (not 7e fantasy, which was just broken beyond belief) is simply expressing the metagame of an individual or group of individuals. There are still places in the country that think Nob Bikers are competitive.

you can type all the long winded posts you wan t but the fact will remain at the end of the day the guard codex are simply over powered, and doing a % system would prevent guard from taking 1200 points of heavy or fast attack, now in fairness even after that they are still over powered but it would be a little more fair

Balancing 40k has to be a bit more involved than making guard players drop some hydras and valks in favor of more armored melta vets and blob infantry.

But what the hell, have a tournament where you have to bring unpainted models and ban IG altogether. Fix everything at once.)




***heavy sarcasm warning for anyone who might take me serious***

man, jet lag and funerals suck. I'm off to help run our 8th edition tournament and make screwed up rules calls.

Brent wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

Make glancing hits from Necron gauss -1 to damage rolls instead of -2.

Poof, 40k is balanced to the point where any codex can win any tournament. What's funny is Necrons can still do it anyway, they just have the hardest time of it.

Mike C.'s comments are pretty effective and succinct on this subject already. The more you venture from the game as written, the more you benefit people with the resources and drive to break the systems you put in place.

Also, %'s encourage min-max, not discourage it. You can only have 3 slots dedicated to Hydras for instance, at their lovely 75 points. 6 x Meltavets in Chimeras is already at around the 50% troop to begin with. Ask if any guard player would hate the notion of being able to field 6 separate units of Hydras to go along with their 6 separate units of meltavets while still having the points to take someone like Straken, etc.

The more you change the game, the more you reward the most flexible codices, which based upon your own commentary in plenty of other places means you benefit the codices you think are most "broken" (i.e. guard, wolves, angels, etc.).

Comp in 40k (not 7e fantasy, which was just broken beyond belief) is simply expressing the metagame of an individual or group of individuals. There are still places in the country that think Nob Bikers are competitive.

you can type all the long winded posts you wan t but the fact will remain at the end of the day the guard codex are simply over powered, and doing a % system would prevent guard from taking 1200 points of heavy or fast attack, now in fairness even after that they are still over powered but it would be a little more fair

So your entire argument consists of calling someone longwinded whilenot refuting or even addressing his points, and making unsupported assertions? You should compare the leafblower to your percentage system. Or, you know, utilize any critical thinking skills availableso that your typical post looks more well thought out and less like overnegative hyperbole. Free advice.

if you really think IG are the equiv of daemons in fantasy then just reduce the amount of points they can bring. 1850 for everyone, 1650 for IG if you have more than 2 valks and 2 vendettas. Something like that seems like it'd work to me. Oh yeah and give necron 2000.

I generally don't play 40k (but I do know how)... I haven't seen Guard cleaning up anywhere recently. All tournaments I have been to or heard about start off with everyone bitching about IG leafblower - but at the end of the day leafblower doesn't win. Dameon or Scooter wins. Neither of them play IG.


I think you either comp as I recommended above or --- get over it.

@mikhaila, I keep saying the internet needs a Sarcasim font.... maybe we should start a petition!

@Lincoln, Scooter and I cheat to win... clearly

Quote :

@Lincoln, Scooter and I cheat to win... clearly

Yes clearly little man it’s on this sat baby. Lincoln has a great point about IG not taking top spot. But the main reason for that is because people are list tailoring to beat them. 40k is allot of fun I would like to play more and more games. I think you should put caps on things like ETC for fantasy. I don't think it's overpowered. If you look at fantasy Ogrees, orcs and goblins, Bretonians. They can’t win in 8th. Win easy that is.

It's the same in 40k some armies are top bog while others need a little love to win. Do a ETC type tournament. Simple NO more than 3 of the same transport no more than 2 of the same tank a max on special weapons.

Groupings for armies.

Just of the top of my head so please no backlash.

IG: 3 of the same transports 2 of the same tanks 20 special weapons on troops IE lass plass melta flamers heavy bolters. Now that I typed that out I knowthat there bs sucks so it will need work.

And on the other side of things like for Dark Eldar no limits on anything. Just a thought I think it would be fun.

Since this is mostly about limiting Guard, why don't we just ban Imperial Guard from tournaments, hahah!

I would LOVE that!

no i mean for everyone sisters shouldn't be able to take 22 melta in 1850 3 exersit tanks. tau shouldn't be able to take 9 broad sides. things like that.

Any particular reason why? Saying they shouldn't =! Proving it. ETC and comp for fantasy is built off empirical evidence that without it only a couple armies could win tourneys. That's simply not the case in 40k. Comp it by tweaking necromancer and angels or don't tweak it at all.


Or prove that guard is ruining balance globally (protip: you won't be able to)

Quote :

you can type all the long winded posts you wan t but the fact will remain at the end of the day the guard codex are simply over powered, and doing a % system would prevent guard from taking 1200 points of heavy or fast attack, now in fairness even after that they are still over powered but it would be a little more fair

Been quietly trolling this thread for a while, funny stuff.

1200 points of heavy? You have to be joking, what kind of army brings that kind of crap?

The idea in my head is just to make things different for tournaments. For me restricting what I can or can't take in a game makes for a cool game. Trying to figure out a way to win without taking melta and rhino spam would be fun.

I'm sure you've played allot of games in your time. Brent’s way of comping isn't really comping. Instead tell people what they can and can’t take would be fun. I don't know if I'm all alone on this but I like all types of tournaments the more the better. Before I played ETC I couldn't stand the thought of it but It was a hell of allot of fun to play.

Trust me I believe more than most that any army can win. I’m winning with my Tau for goodness sake. I just like tournaments and if someone wants to make a tournament for 40k that is a comp tournament then I would like to be part of it. I say we should see what Brent comes up with if he will ever come up with anything at all.

Now I know that some people will say “then don’t take so much melta or only take 1 exorcist tank.” Guys I’m here to win. So no if there’s no comp I’m bringing the most broken thing I can

Quote :

1200 points of heavy? You have to be joking, what kind of army brings that kind of crap?

In my sisters army i almost bring that much in troops lol

The point is 1200 points of heavy in a guard army sucks.

I dont think sucks its just not as stong as some guard lists but I have seen all heavy guard armies that did well.

scooter wrote:

I say we should see what Brent comes up with if he will ever come up with anything at all.

Put up or Get off the pot, Brent!

Re: scooter, I actually don't mind the idea of a homebrew rules 40k tourney, just the notion that 40k needs it.

Re: joko, it's more just a highlight of the fact that the primary "guard is op" antagonist here isn't very familiar with guard in the first place. Else he wouldn't suggest comp systems that actually amplify guard and all the other newer and more flexible codices, nor use absurd list notions as proof statements.
No offense meant anywhere, just think if you want to run a tournament you owe it to your paying constituents to put a heck of a lot more thought into your position.

Go for it with the homebrew rules tourney, just up the level of critical thinking you are putting into it - that way it'll at least live up to its billing and not leave you dealing with a bunch of pissed off people who didn't get that "guard nerfing" format they were promised.

Yeah I got ya,

and Martin im tired of your creepy owl eyes staring at me when I read your posts!!! haha

i thought it was a cat.

You're a cat.

joko12 wrote:

Yeah I got ya,

and Martin im tired of your creepy owl eyes staring at me when I read your posts!!! haha

Better?

haha way better haha

weird just weird

No melta weapons or lascanons that would change the game a lot

and NO AP 1 weapons how much would that change the game haha

MSU mech / transport spam even more potent? Land raider spam ftw?

Heh, and the guard would be even more buffed ... "you mean the marines just lost their two most affordable/reliable anti-tank weapons and we can still take manticores, demolishers, etc.? sweet!"

This is good "BS around" talk ... getting to an actual homebrew ruleset that wouldn't be terribad is the byproduct of literally hours of such "bs around" conversation.

joko12 wrote:

No melta weapons or lascanons that would change the game a lot

and NO AP 1 weapons how much would that change the game haha

As an ork player, I heartily endorse this type of thinking. I also think we can get rid of power weapons, and power armor.)

Look! 40k is balanced!

-No power armor, it's annoying to see people roll saves.
-No power weapons, as I don't get them.
-No melta and lascannons 'cuz they suck and blow stuff up!
-NO IG at all, 'cuz IG aren't balanced!
-NO painted models, because grey legions rock!

ENTER THE AGE OF BRENTHAMMER!!!

(Can anyone tell I stayed up until 5am converting banblades into orky flakwagons for Games Day?. Lack of sleep makes the world fun!!!)

Quote :

As an ork player, I heartily endorse this type of thinking. I also think we can get rid of power weapons, and power armor.)

Look! 40k is balanced!

-No power armor, it's annoying to see people roll saves.
-No power weapons, as I don't get them.
-No melta and lascannons 'cuz they suck and blow stuff up!
-NO IG at all, 'cuz IG aren't balanced!
-NO painted models, because grey legions rock!

ENTER THE AGE OF BRENTHAMMER!!!

(Can anyone tell I stayed up until 5am converting banblades into orky flakwagons for Games Day?. Lack of sleep makes the world fun!!!)

i Heart all of this

@Lincoln - I dont think that Scooter or Dameon have won any tournament that i have been in.....oh yeah thats because i win....and i dont play IG either

How about if you use IG you can't use any Mech expt sentinals haha that would be funny.

this treid is silly nothing is getting done with it. Brent are you coming up with rules for it?

Maybe he is thinking, I say here are the rules.

Daemon, Joe, Vaden, Scooter, and MVBrandt

Can't play anymore and everyone else can.

Theres a good comp system haha

I approve.

How about Daemon, Joe, Vaden, Scooter, and MVBrandt

1) play at-10% total points...
2) Reroll all hits (only successful)
3) Reroll all wounds (see above)
4) Always count as going through difficult terrian..

ok

hahaha that would be reallly funny I think you guys should try

and if one of you does win using those rules then we buy all of you dinner!!!

Really if we do all it does is hurt everyone

If we do and win, then there is more ammo for the argument that "our" armies need nerfs...

If we do and win, "then clearly 40k needs a major overhaul, as imbalance is proven"

If we do and loose, then "clearly 40k is unbalanced and this proves it"

If we do and loose, just sitting at the table adds credibility to the balance thread

i'll do it

Dameon has the right of it: the net result would be lose all around. More practical is to have us each play a less well thought of dex with proxies allowed for us. I'd happily (and plenty of times have) beat face on "optimized " guard/BA/sw/etc with necron, da, bids, etc. 40k enables good players to take the lists they roughly want themewise, check a few good practice bubbles, and roll successfully through a tournament or league.
Homebrew rules are fun, but any comp you come up with will actually harm the balance of forty k. Well, unless 1200pt. Heavysupport IG and nob biker ork are what your local metagame sees as "op. "

Even that doesn't apply here though. Lately the IC Meta is dominated by sob melta spam and CSM. Not exactly the terrors of alarmist codex imbalance lists.

Start acknowledging that some players are just plain good and stop blaming it on phantom game issues. I'm happy to proxy any codex list in anytime against the doubters. Beer, table, terrain and location all on me.

<3 and kisses,
Mike

@MVBrandt, Second that!

As long as I get a diet coke it's cool.

Here are your armies for the next tournament

Pure Grey Knights - No Allies
Necrons
Dark Angels
Raven Guard
Salamanders

I was just saying do it because it would be funny thank you scooter for not being an idiot about it.

Just stop taking it so seriously now its starting to get old.

Its a lose lose for everyone if you do that why?

Who cares try it and see what happens for fun, not for the sake of testing comp or anything I was thinking it would be funny just to see if you could win a game playing like that.

And thats it nothing else more then that. No underlying meseage or result behind it.

Guys its warhammer!!!

Quit Taking it so seriously.

No one can take a joke or even try something different!

Just try it, how funny would it be if you played and won? How funny would it be if you played and didnt win? I think it would be fun either way. I will try it I don't care. I will play with comp too because it dosent matter!!!

Its supposed to be a fun game so why not try doing something fun with it.

And yeah some people are better then other people and if you mean better you mean lucky right?

Because I don't care who you are its all about the dice in the end!

Yeah knowing the game is great but if you roll ones everytime you have to take an armor save or try to shoot someone you loose. So.................................

WHY SO SERIOUS ALL THE TIME???

I just wish Brent would come up with army to army restrictions/ caps. Not to balance to give us a different tournament to play in. I think that would be a really cool tournament. I promise the first one will suck so many loop holes. But after that we can work on it and make an actual system. Lots of fun right.

I think I might try to take a stab at it.

I would avoid free analysis being referred to as "so serious." Cop out reply targeting a perceived emotional state over the most emotionless medium ftw!


To your great big post's summary of "come on man" I say: "wha?"

I love all of you

Whatever Scooter I say try it and if people dont want to play they dont have to they can just sit on here and keep crying about it haha

Josh I'm going to start working on a ETC for of 40k I'll put everything on the site I'll post it for help with it.

I think I'll call it NOT NEEDED BUT MADE NBM lol.

I'll call it ATC = American tournament Comp

What do you all think of the game?

I like the plan I will try and help with it and we can see how it goes. Play test it and what not should be a good time.

i guess we could do a ect style event we would just need to know what army goes where

7.23
IG

1750
blood angles
orks
cms
space wolves
witch hunters

2000
deamons
space marines
tyrinids

2250
daemon hunters
dark eldar
necrons
tau

but all joking aside maybe -150 every tier?